Wiesława Lewandowska talks with the Member of Parliament Antoni Macierewicz about the turning-point speech of the Prime Minister, breach of the rules of democratic law and order and reversing the moral-religious order

WIESŁAWA LEWANDOWSKA: - The Seym, after an acute discussion and insultingly critical speech of the prime minister, rejected the proposed Act by the Law and Justice Party about the return of the plane by Russia, crashed 2 years ago in the Smolensk catastrophe. What influence will it have on the further process of the Smoleńsk investigation?

MP ANTONI MACIEREWICZ: -It means strengthening the previous policy of the cooperation between the government of the Prime Minister Donald Tusk and Russia. Most MPs have voted for leaving the wreckage in the Russian hands. ..Tusk and his supporters are behaving in such a way as if they did not know that policy of concessions is a signal for Russia to strengthen the pressure...

- And it is not about a symbolical value of this Act or a symbolical return of the national relics?

- In contrary, the rejection of this Act has a practical meaning. It is a clear signal for Russia that the Polish prime minister has parliamentary facilities allowing him for further pursuing a policy which allows him to disrespect the Smoleńsk investigation and destroy evidences.

- What basis was the Act rejected on?

- There is an essential argumentation which was used by the Prime Minister Tusk. Apart from the regular insult of the Law and Justice Party, to which we have already got used, the prime minister used a checked method of Mr Palikot and Niesiołowski, based on reversing the meanings and sense of arguments. According to the prime minister - those who demand the return of the plane wreckage from Russia and stopping the destruction of evidences, are traitors of the nation; whereas the defenders of the Polish Raison d'etat are those who just agree on destroying evidences, and on Russian arrogance in this matter. And they consider this reversal of meanings in the speech of Donald Tusk as a breakthrough! The prime minister has never shown such an aggression towards the opposition or a political opponent: And he has never been so lenient towards Russia. He expressed it verbally what criminal groups were doing in August 2012 on Cracow suburb, offending the defenders of the cross and reversing the religious-moral order of Poland.

- However, these were the authors of the Act who were acknowledged as instigators and traitors of the nation, who want to address 'to the tsar, to the Russian Duma'!

- The prime minister, making these accusations, forgot completely about the constitutional order of the Polish Republic. The Seym of the Polish Republic has a right to address to the supreme Russian authorities. Quite recently he has appealed to the President Łukaszenko in the defence of the rights of Belarusian national minorities and to the Ukrainian government in the reference with the anniversary of Wołyń massacre. Earlier - he addressed to Bundestag and the German government in the matter of the Polish property and reparations from Germany that belong to us. Nobody- and rightly - opposed that his appealing is somehow improper. The attitude in these matters was signed by the Seym and not a group of citizens or a political party; whereas now our project of the Seym appeal to the authorities of the Russian Federation was called a betrayal and a political game of the Law and Justice Party with Russia against their own country. After all, it is an absurd and a perversity! Post-communist mentality is hidden behind it, according to which only the government has a right to represent the State. So, it should be reminded to the Prime Minister Tusk that the Seym is an organ to which the government is subjected and it is just the Seym which represents the whole nation.

- Why has the Law and Justice Party decided on introducing this Act if it was known in advance that it would be rejected and a bad sign would go to Russia from Poland?

- The rejection was not so obvious, but in contrary, it seemed that accepting this Act might be a support for the Polish country taking an attitude against Russia. After all, only an Act without any justification including a sentence about helplessness of the government was directed to the addressee - a sentence which frightened the Prime Minister Tusk; whereas a suitably strong signal from Poland could have finally reached to Russia...

- This Seym appeal to Russia might have been, first of all, an impulse forming the Polish government to intensive actions for the sake of the Smolensk investigation?

- It might, as well, because the whole problem is based on the fact that there are simply not such actions of the Polish government. Last year we and the Member of Parliament Jarosław Zieliński were addressing the Foreign Minister Radosław Sikorski with a question about diplomatic actions connected with explaining the causes for the Smolensk catastrophe as well as a request for constant taking up them. The minister promised to inform us about any attempts but he has not done it yet... No diplomatic notes have been submitted: private conversations on this issue might have taken place but we do not know about it. There are no traces of formalised activity of the government of the Polish Republic in the matter of the Smolensk catastrophe.

- And the symbol of the peaceful Polish-Russian relations is the plane wreckage, ceremonially washed on the 2nd anniversary of the catastrophe... Is it still worth crushing the copies?

- It was cynically commented by the advisor of President Bronisław Komorowski - prof. Tomasz Nałęcz, saying that the wreckage is not a proof anyway, because the Russians destroyed the essential traces for the investigation.

- Isn't it any evidence?

- Certainly, it is the most important evidence although Nałęcz and his superior clearly wanted something different would happen.

- Was the stopping the process of concealing the traces possible at all?

- It was possible and necessary. From the protocol in Moscow of the commission of Putin, we know that it was the director of MAK Tatiana Anodina who decided not to allow the experts of UE and NATO for the investigation. The representatives of Poland (Minister Ewa Kopacz and a prosecutor Krzysztof Parulski) present at the meeting remained silent...whereas in Poland there were further actions undertaken. For example, the prosecutor Marek Pasionek is being persecuted for his attempts to gain information about the catastrophe of Tu-154 M from American Services. When we went to USA with Anna Fotyga to talk about it with congressmen and senators, we were brutally accused of a betrayal of the State by the chairman of the government of the Prime Minister Tusk - Pawel Gras... And, finally, when Michael Baden came to Poland, a worldly famous pathologist, despite of attorney of families - he was not allowed to carry out or even observe autopsy of the exhumed bodies. - In my opinion we deal with a clearly converging attitude of the Polish government and the government of the Russian Federation whose purpose is to cause an isolation of the Smoleńsk catastrophe matter from outer observers and experts.

- The government is explaining citizens that everything possible has already been done and the matter can be thought as finished.

- Nothing has been done! And the government pressed to the wall to take up any actions, is using an excuse that it is more important to keep good relations with the powerful neighbour. The military prosecutor explaining Mrs Beata Gosiewska why he did not agree on allowing Michael Baden for the body section, said: ' know, Russia is a powerful country...' The government of the Prime Minister Tusk frightens the society with the reaction of Russia, a cold war and he is using a moral blackmail, and in an absurd way he refers to the previous relations between the Soviet Union and People's polish Republic, completely unsuitable for today's reality. The government has been getting subjected to Moscow in this issue from the beginning, even more than the Russians had expected. And, therefore, it became a co-participant and an accomplice of destroying evidences and concealing the truth about the tragedy of 10 April 2010.

- Because the purpose which is ruthlessly superior is a good relation with Russia?

- In my opinion the reason is much more serious. It is a question of co-responsibility for the death of the Polish elite, not only a moral or political issue, but also in a sense of criminal law. The Prime Minister Turk takes a final responsibility for neglects and dishonesty of his subordinates and he also takes a criminal responsibility. He is probably aware of the fact that the Russians have incomparably more evidences against the organisers of the flight of the Polish elite. Therefore, during a debate about the Seym Act, he opposed to actions so strongly and forcibly, not to allow for the return of the plane wreckage. How should this behaviour of the prime minister be explained? Maybe it is about his personal situation and hysteria and declamations about the Polish ration e'tate conceal his ordinary fright...Otherwise it should be stated that according to Tusk the Polish ration e'tate is keeping silent towards the biggest tragedy in the history of post-war Poland. Churchill said about this situation: 'You will have both disgrace and war'.

- Is bringing the plane wreckage to Poland after two year so important? The prosecutors carrying out the investigation state that the wreckage has been investigated in a proper way...

- It is still very important. This wreckage, despite the prosecutors' statement, it has not been investigated in a proper way; for example, no samples have been taken for laboratory investigations. The wreckage was watched by Polish specialists.

- The Polish Justice Minister is going to Moscow. What for?

- I do not know! Analyzing coldly, the minister noticed that 'the decision about the return of the wreckage is not connected with legal regulations but it is a decision purely political, therefore, the president and the prime minister are taking it. In Russia everything depends on politics...' Will the minister manage to do anything? Honestly, I doubt it; the experience of the last 24 months is that the Russians are simply playing a game with Donald Tusk, treating him with disrespect, humiliating and presenting him negatively towards the nation and then they give something as consolation. Because of his subjection, Donald Tusk has been tied to Wladimir Putin with the Smoleńsk tragedy as if with a dog's lead.

- The Polish media have been emphasizing strongly in the recent time that the Smoleńsk catastrophe was also included in the politics - that it is being discussed both by opposition parties and the government. Do you think that the investigation of Polish prosecutors is being carried out in the atmosphere of peace and independence?

- Quite contrary! The military prosecutors who are responsible for improbable, criminal according to the Polish criminal code, neglect, are behaving in the same way as the government of Donald Tusk... It seems to me that the military prosecutors have no clarity what they should keep to and they do not have their opinion and are dependent on political fluctuations and expectations of the government.

- What neglect do you accuse the prosecutors of today?

- For example, that Polish prosecutors did not take part in autopsy and they did not describe the place of the catastrophe and they did not make any exact photography documentation. For example, no penetration of the wreckage has been done up to now; prosecutors do not know how many wreck there are, there is no their description and no actions reconstructing have been undertaken, which is a routine and a binding procedure by these type of investigations. It was done by our Parliamentary Group on the basis of thousands collected photographs.

- Giving the Smoleńsk catastrophe political character is assigned to the Law and Justice Party by media and politicians of the Civic Platform Party, while you make the same accusation towards the governmental side?

- Yes, I do and I will add that this giving political character is much worse from the point of view of state interests than even the most political pronouncements and speeches of the opposition. If such unusual situations are caused, that the Ministry Council - about which the Justice Minister Jarosław Gowin was saying - is debating whether to allow a prominent pathologist Michael Baden to take part in the autopsy, it is a breach of all rules of democratic law and order. It means that we deal with manual steering politicians and the judicial system. This all reflects also in the credibility of the military prosecutors which is becoming a tool of governing politicians.


"Niedziela" 18/2012

Editor: Tygodnik Katolicki "Niedziela", ul. 3 Maja 12, 42-200 Czestochowa, Polska
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